Devin's response
Submitted by testuser on Thu, 2008-05-01 14:14.
Hey Look | I have a voice too!
Preface
At risk of potentially getting banned again, (saving my post; deleting it doesn't make me go away) I figure a week of invalid, inappropriate forced silence (on my own account at least) is quite enough. Considering that you guys have essentially been carrying on a conversation involving me, without me included, I don't really feel too bad about joining in. A lot has been said on a lot of topics, so instead of responding to individual people I'm just going to address everyone. A few pieces of this will look familiar to those I've had private conversations with through email, but please read carefully as the context is different.
Please note that I'm not trying to turn this into a war. This is (and will be) nothing like "Jason vs Ben". There will be no long and drawn out ad hominem shit-flinging-fests in your inbox forever and ever. I'm not in this for an ego-war or to win points based on how much support I have and how cutting my arguments are. None of that matters to me and if I can I'd like to get this done with as quickly as possible. What does matter to me is my integrity and the opportunity for my side of the story to be heard, and so the whole "silence Devin and then post a lot of shit about him to make him out to seem of dubious integrity to make a poor moderating decision made in anger seem sensible" is tiresome. I am not here to present The Truth of The Matter, merely my side.
I was never heavily involved in IshThink, if you'll recall I did not support it from the beginning and have never been an active participant in the discussions here. My posts have been few and far between. I will be more than happy to move on after this conflict resolves, but obviously there has been zero resolution so far.
All I want to do is say be free to say my piece and my peace publically without being censored or having timeframes on how long I can stay or other ridiculous non-inherent restrictions of the internet. And since I suck at asking for permission and respecting authority even when the rules and the authority are potentially respectable -- completely unlike this situation, in my opinion -- I'm going to go right ahead.
On moderation and me being banned
- Tony made this moderating decision in anger, while reacting to a post I made directly addressing him. In my eyes this moderating decision was made to serve his own needs and not the needs of the community, a community which does not support me being banned. When faced with the lack of support of the community, rather than acknowledging his conflict of interest, he has continued to justify his actions.
- Precisely two people support the moderating decision to ban me outright, Tony and Amanda. Tony was personally involved as previously mentioned, while Amanda is perfectly content to snipe away at me and hold grudges despite repeated requests that she dialogue with me in private if she has a personal conflict with me. At any rate, these two people are far from impartial and needless to say are not representative of the "IshThink community" as a whole.
- Approximately everyone else is at least uncomfortable with the idea of banning someone in general, if not me in particular. The two issues have been conflated here, with people discussing simultaneously their thoughts on moderation/authority/etc in general, and my conflict with Tony/me being banned/whether or not to unban me.
- I find it an exceptionally poor decision to continue to disallow me to speak. For me, if I were an administrator of this forum, since the moderating decision in question was 1. unilateral, and 2. made in anger due to 3. personal involvement in the conflict, my inclination would be to reverse the decision immediately. The lack of prompt and decisive administrative action is disturbing given the circumstances of this conflict.
- It was not my decision to make this into a public conflict and I wish Tony had addressed me in private about the post in question and our conflict in general before making this decision. It frustrates me very much that this has turned into a public conversation, and even moreso that it was made public after I was banned. I feel like Tony has attempted to make an example of me instead of communicating with me as a person.
- If the conflict involved the community at large and it is fitting for the community to talk about, then I would at LEAST ensure both parties be present. But in this instance, the conflict did NOT involve the community, and the entire "Dick Moves" thread has been simply outrageous. It's fair to keep personal conflicts out of the eyes of the public, but it is NOT fair to remove a person entirely on the basis of that personal conflict and then use that private conflict as a starting point for a public discussion on moderation.
This thread being allowed to continue as long as it has, without either involving me or divorcing the discussion of moderation from the conflict, is extremely frustrating. Reading through the discussion and not being able to respond when people are talking directly about me has been even moreso, especially when people are talking about my conduct and character.
On my personal conduct and character
- THIS REALLY SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY, and I'm angry that it is. BUT because this conflict WAS made public I am not comfortable letting people talk about my conduct and character in public without sharing my perspective as well.
- First of all, something silly. A clarification about Janene's suggestion that I was "looking for an excuse to move on": Janene, you may have experienced me attempting to sabotage my interaction with other things I have considered myself "stuck" on and addicted to, but IshThink hardly qualifies as one of those. Speculating as to ulterior motives for me posting what I did is frustrating, as I've mentioned I try REALLY HARD to be SUPER FUCKING CLEAR about what I'm feeling. IshThink in particular is not a roadblock for me and never has been. I literally hadn't visited IshThink in months. The only reason I posted at all in the first place was because I truly honestly believe that if people want to create a supportive website from IshThink the first thing they have to do is kill it with fire. Me attempting to get myself banned from this failure of a website (IMHO lol) doesn't fit there at all unless you're taking a giant hammer to that square peg and think I'm a lot cleverer and more calculating than I really am or could ever be.
-
Was Devin a jerk? Can't say for certain but I wouldn't put it past him. The man, of his own addmission, believes in the unbridaled and uncensored sharing of all feelings. That's what he believes. It's pissed me off on more than one occasion, but hey, there is no one right way.
Hey, Matt. Quoted this for two reasons: The first reason I quoted you is 'cause, like, next time you're writing epic posts in ignorance of my side of how things happened, I'd request that you contact me directly. I has a story too. I'm glad you leave room for me being a jerk -- no seriously, I am, I'd really hate it if you could only say "Devin's nice all the time wtf is going on here!" -- but having an informed opinion is really nice in conversations like these, especially when I can't legitimately speak for myself on my own account.
The second is because it's clear you "get" my approach. Very validating to hear you say that, and it warrants repeating to everyone else: I BELIEVE IN THE UNBRIDLED AND UNCENSORED SHARING OF ALL FEELINGS.
What he is doing -- exploring his fundamental emotional nature is important and extremely scary to most of us.
and to me too! And though most of the time I am afraid to be Devin-in-full-force I do practice, whenever I can, to gain courage. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just being as real as I let myself.
My integrity really does matter to me and I feel like I've consistently made myself vulnerable publicly, mustering up as much courage as I can to share my story -- no holds barred. I've been literally baring my soul (as much of it as I can on the internet) to people who can't see or hear me, who I can't see or hear, who don't necessarily have even remotely similar values on sincerity and openness, and who often invalidate and dismiss me readily, since I joined IshCon and posted my Declaration of Faith. Regardless of what your opinion of this approach is -- IMO one part naive and foolish, one part courageous lol -- this has been THE driving factor in my conflict with Tony, as we seem to have polar opposite ideas about vulnerability.
- Anyway, since the offending post was deleted, I find it prudent to share [an overview of] my side of this latest conflict with Tony. I've already sent this to the many people who have asked for my side.
I harbor no ill will toward Tony, but I maintain my opinion of his online persona and invulnerability that he sets up for himself. I really am tired of him patronizing and invalidating my story while hiding behind "no one can take me seriously" bullshit. So I called him on it and used the ONLY thing I knew about him that he'd ever shared about himself that could potentially make him vulnerable to illustrate. Yeah, it was incendiary, since it was in regards to his father hitting him with a belt, but it's not like it was "personal information". He posted it on IshCon, and IIRC ironically in the context of invalidating me: "your conflict is trivial, my dad used to beat me". So the ONE time I flip the dynamic around somewhat, though far more directly and thus in my opinion not nearly as obnoxious and underhanded as he does it -- I made it *crystal* clear what I thought of him, while nuancing it to give him the opportunity to share something about himself if I was wrong -- he bans me.
So yeah, I know exactly what I wrote, and given my interaction with Tony the response it elicited is hardly surprising. [Janene keeps] mentioning that I know exactly what to write to piss people off, but that's not why I wrote it. I was angry but I really just want him to leave me alone. I clearly bring up issues in Tony that don't get brought up by other posters on this forum, and I'm sure it's from my polar opposite approach about honesty, directness, and vulnerability -- and of course, my youth. Anyway as a result of all that I've had to perpetually put up with bullshit from him about how I'm just a kid this and I'm whining that and all kinds of various obnoxiousness. I'm not just going to sit there and accept someone continually doing that, I'm going to defend myself, in this instance telling him to "go find someone else to troll".
Anyway, all of Tony's talk about respect just REEKS of disingenuousness, as I have never felt respected by him, nor have I ever felt like he has made himself mutually vulnerable and thus given me anything to respect. That he could possibly totalize me as "all bad" and make himself the victim of my "boundless abuse" from which he must protect the community, from a post where I address him about the dynamic of our relationship... well, it's at once astonishing and completely unsurprising given my interaction with him. It's also simultaneously laughable and angering, because I don't think he's kidding. Needless to say, I find calling me, among other things, "nasty", "inhuman", "boundlessly abusive", to be blatantly untruthful, ridiculous, and totally insane -- but hey, the Tony I've seen has always been insane.
That's pretty much all I have to say about that subject.
------------
conclusion?
Unban me, we talk, this resolves, I continue to have opinions and conflicts and emotions and *gasp* even talk about them, I continue thinking IshThink fails, I continue to have conflict with Tony whenever we interact (irrelevant to my participation on this forum), I continue to keep in touch with the people I care about whether it's on here or another website or any mediated medium, and we all go on our merry way.
Or, of course, we can keep going the way we are now: keep me banned, this leaves a foul taste in everyone's mouth, I continue to have opinions and conflicts and emotions and *gasp* even talk about them, I continue thinking IshThink fails, I continue to have conflict with Tony whenever we interact (irrelevant to my participation on this forum), I continue to keep in touch with the people I care about anywhere other than here, and we all go on our not-as-merry way.
Not either-or, of course, I'm sure there are many options -- but the current path is pretty shitty for all of us, I think.
Hoping to avoid more of this drama, wish I could have in the first place, couldn't legitimately expect anything different --
Devin
It's cool -- I mean,
Submitted by testuser on Thu, 2008-05-01 15:27.
It's cool -- I mean, kinda... I don't really appreciate speculation as to my ulterior motives even if it's spot on, 'cause it's speculation and people psychoanalyzing my shit makes me uncomfortable. Thanks for apologizing though. 
I know you don't have any negative intentions, so I probably wouldn't have said anything otherwise, but in this case it just didn't ring true... so I felt a need to clarify and wanted to do it publicly since you'd said it publicly in the first place. Don't mean to diss ya.
- D
Administrative Decisions
Submitted by William on Thu, 2008-05-01 16:14.
I don't make them. I set up the site. I make sure it works. I don't make any decisions past what makes this site technically work. I don't know much about how to socially make this site work.
If you don't like that, fuck you.
I think it's poor to not
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 02:48.
I think it's poor to not involve yourself, as the administrator of this site, especially after we talked in the chat room. Just my opinion and my feeling, and I have felt mounting frustration as time has passed. I'm not blaming you, but I am frustrated. Is that clear?
Yes, completely clear
Submitted by William on Fri, 2008-05-02 03:23.
Yes, completely clear.
I don't like it either, but my only other choice is to spend a lot of time and energy and stress on this when I could spend it on people and projects close to me, like making sure I pass finals, or one of the 5 or 6 programming projects that really inspire me, or chasing the girl that seems to like me.
It's a crappy choice, but I gotta make it. At least for now.
ok
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 03:50.
Okay, I (now) understand that you're busy, but unbanning me really doesn't take that long. I guess I'll just request that you unban me as soon as possible and leave it at that... again. Not happy about it though, if that's ok with you lol.
Devin
...
Submitted by ebacherdom on Thu, 2008-05-01 16:37.
I didn't hear an, "I'm sorry Tony," in there.
You don't want to be a part of this community. You're happy to leave, you're just too stubborn to let someone kick you out? You understand the value of apologizing (Janene can), but you can't bring yourself to just apologize by saying, "Jeez, I stepped over your line, sorry I hurt you?"
Who cares if Tony banned you - with that sort of attitude and carelessness for others' feelings, do you think any other moderater-powered individual would have done anything different?
You have a lot of anger in you, and while I appreciate your desire to explore that, your actions are destructive here and your choice not to respect other people isn'tsomething we want to work with here.
Dominic
gr
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 02:57.
What line did I cross? What am I apologizing for? Tony didn't respond to me directly at all except to patronize and invalidate me yet again, exactly like I predicted in that post. I have no idea whatsoever what hurt about what I said and why, because he hasn't communicated that to me and obviously will not.
Your judgment of my actions as destructive is an opinion I do not share. I can't pretend that I know anything about Tony, because he has never shared anything about himself to make himself vulnerable. Until he does, I have no fucking clue who he is and thus cannot respect him. I don't respect people I don't respect, and I'm not going to put on a show of respect that doesn't exist. If you think I'm careless, you don't know me at all.
In fact, you don't really know either of us and your choice to involve yourself in this personal conflict after Tony's decision to make this conflict public pisses me off. Next time you have a conflict with someone make sure you broadcast it on here so we can all judge you for your actions, amirite? You expecting to hear things from me is ridiculous. "I didn't hear an I'm sorry". lol fuck off.
Lastly, speak for yourself. You are not "we".
Devin
You.
Submitted by ebacherdom on Fri, 2008-05-02 17:09.
You have answers to all the questions, you know them by heart.
Devin, I can't respond to you anymore and keep my composure; and for myself I choose not to belittle everything I stand for by allowing you to goad me into a way of conversing that is belittling to everyone around me, and disrespectful and rude.
I sincerely hope you find peace in this life, that your heart matures and catches up to what is obviously a keen intellect at times. If you believe what you are doing is okay, I urge you to seek help, real help. You are the rattlesnake that will be cast out until you are the rattlesnake that must be killed.
Devin, Seek peace where you may, I sincerely hope you find it someday.
Dominic
lol
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 21:34.
Pray for me ok?
I started to say "I won't be self-righteous in response" but then that got way too ironic way too fast. So... I'll just be over here vomiting. 
D-rizzle
on edit: hmm, because that sounds like I'm externalizing and people are good at confirmation bias... to clarify why I'm vomiting: I still carry that sickening self-righteousness with me, and it makes me want to vomit up everything that's not me.
I'm going to keep asking
Submitted by Ludi on Thu, 2008-05-01 17:40.
When will Devin be un-banned?
Please respond.
except "Devin" isn't really here, ya know...
Submitted by JCamasto on Thu, 2008-05-01 18:40.
Yeah, and as long as the gag and handcuffs are still on him, I'm in outrage mode.
-----
So I'll escalate straight to "threat of abandonment" and "appeals to authority" other knee-jerk aculturated techniques - whatever it takes, to get the gag off. Tit for tat to the well acculturated techniques of power and abuse on display here...
Sure, D can make an end-run around silly technical bans, as he's done here, but he's still in the hole. And someone is actively keeping him there...
I have only so much energy and emotion to share with people here - and thus my posts are few, and short. And outrage is still my theme, as long as Devin is kept prisoner. (and I don't expect it to temper much, even after the gag is off...)
All this talk of: "keep your feeling out of it" and "academic like analysis" and "too much anger in your voice" and "too many nasty words" is a joke, right? That is trying to make a system that works only when people are behaving as something supra-human...
Who cares what 99% of the internet forum world would think/say/respond/act... How does that even matter here?
Who the fuck has the power to ban people here? Where's the list? WHo's holding this shit up?
-Jim
Enough is enough
Submitted by Ghost on Thu, 2008-05-01 19:55.
Hey, Devin.
I was never heavily involved in IshThink, if you'll recall I did not support it from the beginning and have never been an active participant in the discussions here. My posts have been few and far between. I will be more than happy to move on after this conflict resolves, but obviously there has been zero resolution so far.
Oh, I recall.
You've been a negative force in this community since before its inception. As your friend, I beg you to acknowledge something. You are a part of this problem. Please, do not play the wounded martyr and please, do not pretend that history begins at the moment you were banned. You have been against this community since the start. The way that you interact with people, as liberating and health-inducing as it may be for yourself, makes them feel uncomfortable and often offends them. You KNOW this for fact. It's happened before and we've had LONG, open and archived discussions about it so don't act like its some kind of shock to you. I've told you straight up before. In that discussion, you pushed me to a point of anger that I didn't want to cross and when I asked you if you were happy you said yes. If you're looking for sympathy for what you've done, you've come to the wrong place. If you walk into someone's home and they ask you not to swear in front of their children and you do because YOU feel they need to be exposed to swears, you shouldn't be surprised that someone in the family wants you out of the house. In this case, you have not respected Tony's boundaries. As Dom pointed out, nowhere in your post have you even broached the possibility that you may have stepped over Tony's line, intentionally or not.
Now, I am fighting tooth and nail to get you unbanned and believe you me, it's not so you can run amok. Don't think that you don't still have to answer to this community for what you've done. In the end, we may just decide to re-instate the ban. I'm fighting to get you unbanned so that everyone in this community that I love so much can deal with this, you included. If you are sticking around so you can get some kind of vindication for your wrongful banning, here it is. Tony was wrong to ban you. There. You've got it. If that's all you want, you are now free to move on. If you're sticking around to help us as a community make this right, then by all means please stick around, work with us and let's restore harmony. But I will not support you for one second if you are not honestly willing to admit your part in all of this and sit down at the table with us like an adult.
If you want to be a part of this community, then be one. You know what it means. If you don't then leave us in peace, misguided and destined to fail as we may be.
I'm sorry if that's tough love, but I figured that you of all people would want to hear the straight deal.
Now, Tony.
I am begging you, BEGGING, to un-ban Devin. We need to discuss two things as a community and we can't until you let go of the key.
We need to discuss Devin and what many, not all, but many people see as his disruptions. We need to decide as a community, you included, what to do about him. It might not turn out the way you want it, then again, people might agree to re-instate the ban. But it's EVERYONE'S decision.
We then need to discuss the USE of moderator power. THAT it exists is a function of the program. HOW it is used is a function of the wishes of the community. If you do not unban Devin, you are implicitly saying that you now have the authority to wield your power without oversight and in opposition to the will of the community. Is that what you want? Is that what you want this community to be? Do you, as moderator, speak on behalf of the community and their wishes or do you decide what the community wishes? I haven't wanted to say this explicitly but this has gone on long enough. I can guarantee you that if this place becomes a place in which might makes right, in which a few can control the site despite the wishes of everyone, or even of a minority, if this place becomes just another episode of that never ending story, the Civilisation show, I can GUARANTEE that members of this community, KEY members of this community will get up and leave and that, Tony, my friend, might be a mortal blow to this community. Quite frankly Tony, I might be one of them. I can't even begin to contemplate how devastating that would be to me personally. I don't want to contemplate it.
I'm telling you as a friend, I'm warning you because I don't want anyone to get hurt further, if you hold onto that key, I'm terrified that it's all you'll have to remember this community by.
I know he hurt you. I know he needs to be dealt with. I know that its happened before, not just with Devin, but with others. I know you're just as sick of the ad-homs as me. I know you're just trying to make things better. I know you're a good man with good intentions. But you've done something wrong and it continues to damage this community. You need to rectify it. You and you alone are putting many of us in a difficult position. Please, end this. We'll face this together. Please. I beg you.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
Devin has already unbanned
Submitted by Tony on Thu, 2008-05-01 20:39.
Devin has already unbanned himself, and I think the will of the community is about half and half. So I think what you want is an apology, Matt. I am sorry, to you and others, for not talking with you about my choice that I made for my perception of the good of the site.
I'm only ever going to ever ask you this question once. Please stay?
I'm not going into that drama, make your choice, accept my apology and willingness to discuss what next, but let's not play that game.
Devin just wants to get served, and then he'll be gone, before the nagging and the itching comes back again.
I'm really fucking glad you said what you said Matt, because I feel like as a group of people we are starting to hear each other.
Also, my only response to Devin is; I have lost all interest in working with you as a person or professional. Why haven't you had the same loss in interest? Your interest, and compunction, is baffling!!
No, I'm just kidding, it's manipulative and I totally know how chilling it must feel to see a manipulation backfire.
I'm glad you started this thread, it was the most productive thing you've done to steer a conversation on Ishthink, IMNotSoHO, you maybe have a little Coyote in you after all, Rattlesnake.
-Turtle, Coyote, y Hongo!
No
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 03:45.
No, what's chilling is how you see my no-holds-barred passionately angry REAL posts as manipulative, scripted, and cunning. Unbelievable that you can even insinuate that shit.
You can share nothing about yourself for 1600+ posts on IshCon, repeatedly invalidate and patronize me when I lay myself bare in public, and then pretend you have the moral high ground ALL YOU WANT. I find it fucking revolting, and I can't even begin to be hurt by you. I can't even take you seriously when you do it, so I often feel like laughing and strangling you at the same time. And when I think about it, at its heart I find it really sad, because someone or something MUST have fucked you up DEEPLY. And yeah that's an assumption, and maybe a hurtful one, but all I CAN do is assume. You don't share ANYTHING, even when requested, so I've made a story up from what little I know about you so I can at least somewhat reconcile the endless bullshit I get from you.
But saying this is what you banned me for last time, so I'd better be careful right? I'd better hold my tongue, better watch out 'cause moderator-guy is going to find me offensive and hurtful like he's unacknowledged-ly been since, literally, day one when I IMed you. I still have that conversation saved, actually. 3-19-2005.
Blech.
- Devin
No games here
Submitted by Ghost on Fri, 2008-05-02 17:44.
Hey, Tony.
I realise that Devin has managed to circumvent the ban, but I still think that it would be a good jesture on your part to un ban him.
I absolutely appreciate your apology, but I didn't particularly need one. I know you didn't mean any harm and that you recognise that what you've done has affected others. That's great.
I'm not trying to play any games. It's not a matter of do what I say or I'll leave and then your either call my bluff or not. I'm just telling you that people are mad enough to leave and that I implore you to recognise that.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
Enough is enough, I agree
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 03:22.
You too, matt? Judgment of me as a negative force since the beginning? Goddamn bro, you're projecting a lot of shit onto me that's just not there. I don't give a fuck about sympathy, if you hate me for being me that's 100% fucking fine. I'm not fucking martyring myself because I'm telling my side, that's unbelievably retarded.
Silencing me, even if you don't like me, though, is not fair or called for, and in all fairness my story needs to be heard. I'm currently operating under the assumption that people here want to hear more than one side of the story, if not because they support me, at least because they care about fairness. You haven't even HEARD my side of the story up until now and you're concluding that I'm all ad-hominem this and hurtful that, just because of assumptions you make about me? Fuck that, dude, seriously. This is EXACTLY why I'd appreciate you emailing me to ask for my side BEFORE you make such conclusions. A priori conclusions don't help.
Until Tony wants to talk to me directly, as a person, I have nothing to say to him. I addressed him directly about our conflict and instead of responding to me directly and in private, he bans me and makes it public. You didn't even SEE the post in question and you're like, expecting me to apologize. Again, what the FUCK am I apologizing for? TONY needs to tell me, TONY has to talk to me about how he feels about what I wrote or I feel NOTHING. Until he's willing to talk to me as a person instead of some sort of Original Gorilla spiritual superior (now with Moderator Powerz!), this isn't going ANYwhere.
It has NOTHING to do with me not being an adult and EVERYTHING to do with Tony completely banning me from even coming to the table at all. How the FUCK am I supposed to "come to the table" if I can't talk? I definitely acknowledge my role in all of this, that's exactly what my post was saying, but if I can't talk then it's fucking pointless. I'm starting in a hole here as I'm not even technically allowed to speak still. My account is still banned.
Of COURSE I don't want to be a part of this website's incarnation of this community. As I said I'd be more than glad to leave the community when this resolves, and for fuck's sake let's get it resolved. That's why I want to get unbanned, that's why I wrote what I did: because talking about something that involves me without including me when it's this emotionally charged and when I can't fucking speak for myself is fucking outrageous!
Epic facepalm. Seriously. 
Just stop
Submitted by Ghost on Fri, 2008-05-02 18:19.
You too, Matt?
Are you Julius Caesar?
I'm my own man. I don't follow trends. I say what I say because I mean it and, as my record CLEARLY illustrates, I never get on a witch hunt band wagon. I am NOT a part of some conspiracy to persecute you.
You JUST said you've been against this site since the begining and that of course you don't want to be a part of it and me saying you've been a negative force is somehow preposterous? How does that work? You HAVE been a negative force. Granted, I absolutely cannot say that you've brought nothing to this community because of course you have, but think about it for a second. Do you think that it's so implausible that your disdain for this board and what it represents seeps into what you say?
I don't hate you for being you. You are who you are and I accept that. But for real dude, your way makes people uncomfotable and it offends them and you KNOW that. You know it and you're acting like it's a surprise to you. Be yourself. Do whatever you gotta do. But for Christ's sake, man up and accept that your actions have consequences.
If people don't want to share their emotions, that's their business. You don't have the right to force them to do it just cause you want them to. It's an invasion. THAT is what you've done and THAT is what you refuse to recognise. THAT is what, I think, you have to apologise for.
Silencing me, even if you don't like me, though, is not fair or called for, and in all fairness my story needs to be heard.
Are you even reading what I'm writing? When have I said that? When have I said it was right to silence you? Where? Nowhere, that's where.
What's your side? I'm waiting. You've said all you want is to present it. Where is it? What are you waiting for? You haven't said word one. But you have spouted on about how wrong Tony was and how wronged you've been and how you don't owe anyone an apology.
And what's all this stuff about complaining about this being public? Did you guys have this conversation over PM? No. You posted it so that not only everyone in this community could see it, but so that any one with an internet connection could. YOU are the one who aired your dirty laundry in public. This IS a public issue. You continue to post in public. If you don't want this to be public then get a room. Work it out in PM and STOP posting about it.
I didn't see the post. You're right. But others did and they thought you crossed the line. More importantly, Tony thought so and he's the one you were talking to. So you owe him an apology. He tried to apologise to me, but he owes you the apology for doing what he did. If neither of you are willing to do that, that's your business. But don't tell me that I'm not allowed to tell each of you to apologise when you're both carying on like a couple of children in public, trying to gain the sympathy of all of us so we'll take your side. Well fuck both of your sides. If neither of you are willing to aknowledge the fact that you've offended each other, which is so self-evident that I have to believe neither of you graduaded from kindergarten if I'm to believe neither of you see it, and that your continued actions are disrupting this community and that we have a right to tell you both where to shove it, then sit back and watch how we react.
Let's break this down.
- You did something, Tony takes offence. You owe him an apology.
- Tony banned you in anger. He owes you an apology.
- People reacted poorly to Tony wielding power in that way. Tony has to deal with that.
- We, the community, want to discuss how to deal with conflicts and moderator power.
That's what's going down. This is bigger than you. It's a community issue.
So this is it. I'm telling you everything that I feel. I'm not holding back anything. What happened to you was wrong. Fine. But you're acting like a child. What have you done to make this situation better? What?
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
Sums it up
Submitted by AaronD on Fri, 2008-05-02 20:17.
Let's break this down.
- You did something, Tony takes offence. You owe him an apology.
- Tony banned you in anger. He owes you an apology.
- People reacted .. to Tony wielding power in that way. Tony has to deal with that.
- We, the community, want to discuss how to deal with conflicts and moderator power.
That seems to about sum it up from my perspective. A lot of people seem shaken by what has happened either because of #1, 2, or 3. #1 and 2 are pretty simple, though the emotions may be intense at the moment. #3 and 4 definitely need discussion, but I would imagine that discussion about these would be challenging since 1 and 2 still haven't happened.
Two sets of apologies, an unbanning, and then community discussion would be helpful.
Care,
Aaron
let me try
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 22:26.
1. I wrote a post, giving Tony the opportunity to communicate with me as a fallible human being and setting my boundaries. Tony takes offense, but patronizes me in response instead of sharing his feelings with me that I hurt him. I feel zero remorse, only tired frustration. I'll willingly apologize if/when I feel remorse, which I simply refuse to fake.
2. Tony banned me in anger. I will accept an apology if he truly feels remorse, otherwise an apology does nothing for me. I think unbanning me would be an appropriate step towards this end.
3. Tony publicized the ban and involved the community. People reacted to Tony wielding power in that way. Tony has to deal with that, and unfortunately everyone else has to deal with it too.
4. We, the community, want to discuss how to deal with conflicts and moderator power.
Edited to reflect my take. I don't think 3 and 4 require 1 and 2 and as challenging as the discussion might be it looks to me like that challenge is going to be necessary. I'm not even halfway interested in approaching Tony for reconciliation when the big lummox (and I mean that in a friendly way, lol) won't even unban me.
again; calmer and hopefully clearer
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 20:59.
First of all, Julius Caesar is dead! Of course I'm not Julius Caesar, silly.
Sorry, sorry, this is serious business. I'll put my serious pants on now. k.
---
This is important, so it goes first, again: I don't care about gaining your sympathy and I'm not trying to win over people to my side. I couldn't care less if you agree, I just want to be able to talk so you and everyone else hears what I have to say. When I can't voice my emotions, for various reasons I start feeling rage pretty quickly. And of course, it is frustrating when I feel like people aren't hearing me when I am voicing them. All I ask is that you hear me out. Where it goes from there after that, I can't say.
Calling me a negative force isn't necessarily "preposterous" but it is a judgment, especially given how heated the conflict was about "IshThink vs. 10kWays" and the amount of energy I put into generating "what could be" while seemingly everyone else was still working on "what already is". I guess you can call that negative, in one sense, but I'm never (read: very rarely) wantonly critical. I continue to criticize IshThink for a reason, because I see opportunity and potential where I see what I'm criticizing getting in the way, but after I've satisfactorily criticized I'm more than willing to work on constructive alternatives. I think I've shown that, and on more than one occasion. Just how I see it, you're free to disagree. But such a totalized statement -- "you've been a negative force since the beginning" -- doesn't strike me as fair. Reiterating it doesn't make it any more true or fair. I'll just translate what you said to "I've seen you as a negative force since the beginning." And accept that. You are, of course, entitled to your perspective. I do not share your perspective here.
In the post I got banned for I impolitely requested that Tony either 1. become mutually vulnerable or 2. fuck off, with admittedly greater emphasis on the fuck off. I addressed him directly and personally about how I didn't appreciate him posting in the manner that he did. I wasn't trying to force Tony to share his emotions, I was trying to get him to stop invalidating mine. That warrants repeating but I'm sure I'll get another opportunity to say it anyway.
Obviously people can see my posts here, so in that sense it was public, but in no way was anyone else invited to comment or be involved. I thought it was fitting to display publicly how I react to being dismissed publicly. "Giving as good as I got", as it were. And since Tony is all over the place, the only thing I could (and did) predict accurately was more of the same. In my concluding paragraph, I wrote
But I'm sure that you'll respond by patronizing and invalidating me yet again, instead of being vulnerable for once.
And he didn't even respond at all for 4 days, but when he did it was at midnight with a post, as I expected, indirectly referring to me in a patronizing and dismissive tone. I skimmed -- no need to take it seriously -- so I only remember one part: "They say you hate most in yourself what you hate most in others, and well, Devin clearly has a lot of self-hatred." {note: That's in my voice, of course -- sorry I can't be more historically accurate, but Tony deleted the posts in question.} Typically I'd lol and rage, but it's really old by now so I don't react. I merely quote my entire conclusion again, with the last sentence "Go find someone else to troll." and the subject as "yawn". I leave the tab up and go do something else for a while, and next time I refresh the page, my posts are gone, there's a post on the front page called "Dick Moves" and I can't sign in to respond because he's blocked me. I was astonished, amused, and angry all at once. I hadn't predicted that at all, though it definitely fits a pattern.
Here it's important to note briefly that my actions have consequences, as you say, and I accept that. I do. What I expected to happen, did, and I was prepared to deal with it just fine -- but then more unexpected stuff happened after that. And when people take my shit and flip out and go insane beyond all expectation, yeah I'm kinda surprised.
It's a little bit like hearing about the rainforest being cut down. On one hand, it's like "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING, STOP THAT!" On the other, it's like, of course we're cutting down the rainforest. When insanity is the norm, the whole world flips upside down.
Anyway, so instead of addressing me that what I said hurt him, instead of coming to me and approaching me like I'm a real person and like my anger is valid, he bans me and in doing so involves the entire forum in a discussion of moderation in the context of a series of outrageous comments about my character. "Inhuman", "boundlessly abusive", etc., when in my eyes I was merely stating my boundaries -- albeit in a provocative way. As has become evident, I don't appreciate Tony's response to me, nor do I feel it was warranted.
I watch as that thread develops and feel the urge to respond, but I can't. All I can do is splutter, off to the side in emails and in the chatroom. The anger I felt and expressed was powerless, as I was still muted at the place where people were discussing me and my conduct in a conflict that wasn't their business in the first place. Rage, frustration, idle bemusement... there are a lot of words to describe the cycle of emotions I went through, depending on whose post I was reading and whose post I couldn't respond to.
That this is a public conflict pisses me off and I'm talking about it because I want it to go back to being private. You guys had a whole week to talk about me without including me, with my frustration and anger mounting, and it's time that ends. I have said my peace (well, now I have, at least) about how I experience Tony and how I responded to him, and am only sticking around to speak to my integrity and repeat myself in many different ways about the rest. My conflict with Tony, again, isn't your business and that it has become so due to Tony banning me and involving the community is infuriating. Do you get that? I don't want to be talking about this at all but because I care (a bit) about (some of) my relationships here I'm not just going to write all of you off and leave. I'm going to tell my side of the story and speak for myself until I'm satisfied that what I have to say is being heard, or at least that I said everything I wanted to.
You don't have to like it, lol... you don't even have to listen. No one's forcing you to do anything here, and I'm NOT trying to manipulate the outcome of this one way or the other, despite your accusations. I have an opinion on what is fair and what I think would be best if it happened but it's one of my highest values that people are free to do what they wish, even if it hurts me. The flipside of that is that I leave room for myself to be free to do what I wish also, even if it hurts me and others. It's not clean -- it's potentially lethal -- but at least it's real. I made a decision several years ago that I would rather die being real than live being fake, and I pursue that, intensely, with as much courage as I can muster.
In this instance I don't think that what has happened here is fair, and I'm angry, and if you have any empathy for me at all you'll respect that I have a voice too. I think you do -- at least underneath -- so even though I'm not feeling very respected or listened to, I'm going to keep talking. You calling me childish doesn't exactly communicate to me that you respect where I'm coming from, but since in my perspective it doesn't fit I don't mind speaking to it. Please, let me know at any time if you've written me off completely and I'll stop talking to you. Not a happy outcome necessarily, but shit happens, right?
I'm not sure where to go from here. As far as my reconciliation with Tony goes, not that it really concerns you, unless he's being mutually vulnerable or an asshole I honestly don't really care one way or the other about Tony, and for the third time I don't accept what you think I should apologize for. Other people's opinions that I crossed a line don't faze me at all. Until I hear Tony addressing me directly that I hurt him I'm probably not going to feel anything toward him except anger. That's just how it works -- I can't "see" his emotions here and I'm not going to make them up from his actions. I don't feel remorse in this situation and in the meantime I refuse to accept someone else's idea that I am guilty. I'll apologize when I feel remorse and no sooner, anything else is fake. If this makes me "heartless" then I think you guys have weird definitions of what it means to have a heart. But again, whether I apologize to Tony or not isn't really your business. I'm willing to explain my reasoning to you but I'm not willing to debate it and I certainly don't appreciate being judged on the basis of whether or not I perform actions you think I should do. At all, for serious.
So, yeah -- "making the situation better" isn't really my concern here. While I do want to get this resolved, one way or another, I am mostly here to voice my take on things. I have a voice too, I really do, and I'm going to speak up no matter what people's opinions are on what I should or should not say. And my integrity and authenticity matters to me -- a lot -- so I really want to be able to speak to what people have said about me, even in the context of a conflict I didn't really want to mess with and that pisses me off for being public in the first place. So here I am, for better or for worse. Personally, I'd think that me voicing my frustrations and telling my story here have rectified the injustice of me not being allowed to speak, and in so doing have made things "better", but that's just me.
Let me know if you're hearing me. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say what I've said here, though, so if this doesn't speak to you I'm quickly running out of ideas.
I'm doing the best I can with what I have -- sincerely -- so whatever happens, happens.
- "testuser"
Devin
Ok...
Submitted by Hypnopompia on Fri, 2008-05-02 06:33.
Wow, I really hope this is cathartic for everyone, because other than letting it out this thread is shaping up to be even less productive than the last one.
<Sigh>
I'll probably regret even saying anything...oh hell, I already regret saying anything. But here it goes, and the best part is you can say anything you want to me but I'm going to a primitive tech meet up tomorrow and won't hear a word of it!
Apologies are to ease tensions. They don't mean you admit to being wrong, they mean you admit to hurting someone. And hurting someone is solely dependent on their appraisal, not yours. If I say something I think is funny and hurt the person I'm talking to, then I hurt the person I was talking to and should apologize. I shouldn't sit there and insist it was a joke and I have no reason to apologize. My reason to apologize is to help heal the rift between us, not to admit I was wrong to make a joke. And as we have seen here (and I'm guessing every other time any of us has ever seen this) insisting I don't have to apologize just makes things worse. It doesn't help heal the rift, it doesn't make the other person decide my comment was funny, hell it doesn't even make me feel better. I actually get angrier the more I insist on not apologizing!
So really, what does not apologizing really accomplish? Not much, unless of course feeling lots of pointless anger is slowing giving you the ability to fly. But, in the unlikely event this is not the case, I would recommend pride is a stumbling block before your feet. In the end you fall on your face, you might bring someone down with you, and everyone else will simply walk away (after laughing or feeling sorry for you depending on the situation and involvement of canine feces).
Oh well. Everyone tell me how stupid I am, how I don't know because I haven't been around, and how apologizing is admitting you're wrong. I'll be back on Sunday unless I check the site before I leave tomorrow.
Goodnight
- Benjamin Shender
Adam and Devin have a chat
Submitted by testuser on Fri, 2008-05-02 22:10.
(5:40:56 PM) Adam_Hintz: I think it would be cool if you could write more of the calm and clear type of posts. not trying to box you in or make you fake. just alittle encouragment twards something that i could see work.
(5:41:53 PM) Devin: haha
(5:41:55 PM) Devin: well
(5:42:19 PM) Devin: it's very difficult when I feel like I'm fighting for a voice for me to not be angry and cursing and so on
(5:42:24 PM) Devin: after I voice that
(5:42:29 PM) Devin: I can definitely be calmer and clearer
(5:42:33 PM) Devin: but there's a process lol
(5:42:51 PM) Devin: the one requires the other, in my opinion
(5:42:57 PM) Devin: I can't really skip being angry or I haven't been real
(5:43:12 PM) Devin: not that I'm justifying, here, just explaining how I see it
(5:43:23 PM) Devin: I agree --
(5:43:29 PM) Devin: it's hard for people to hear me when I'm angry
(5:43:40 PM) Devin: but does that make me less angry? no
(5:44:07 PM) Devin: it actually makes me angrier until I've voiced it to my satisfaction
(5:44:23 PM) Adam_Hintz: so the angry post are a part of the process for you.
(5:44:55 PM) Devin: people know I'm pissed off, now, so I can write what I said more calmly, and they can appreciate it when I'm calmer, after they get over me being angry lol
(5:44:56 PM) Devin: yeah
(5:45:03 PM) Devin: for everyone I think
(5:45:36 PM) Devin: so in one sense I'm frustrated, in another everything's happening as it has to in order to reach true reconciliation
(5:45:46 PM) Adam_Hintz: I think this is a type of communication most people don't understand.
(5:45:58 PM) Devin: if I were to apologize and fake my way through a reconciliation
(5:46:08 PM) Devin: that would just postpone and suppress the conflict
(5:46:21 PM) Devin: well yeah, it's definitely different, and I'm not very good at being angry yet
(5:46:46 PM) Devin: what I mean is, I don't have practice getting in touch with my anger fully, so what I say often comes off as judgmental and doesn't really help
(5:47:13 PM) Adam_Hintz: What would that look like if you were good at being angry.
(5:47:17 PM) Adam_Hintz: ?
(5:47:18 PM) Devin: but I can relinquish that pretty well once I get it off my chest, and apologize later when I feel remorse
(5:47:21 PM) Devin: haha
(5:47:23 PM) Devin: I'm not even sure
(5:47:28 PM) Adam_Hintz: lulz
(5:47:28 PM) Devin: probably blind rage
(5:47:32 PM) Devin: RAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHA:SDLFKjasdfaaffffffffffff
(5:47:35 PM) Devin: in text form
(5:47:35 PM) Devin: lol
(5:47:41 PM) Adam_Hintz: ha ha
(5:48:03 PM) Devin: that way people can hear my anger without the verbal barrage
(5:48:14 PM) Devin: this kind of shit isn't meant to be done online though
(5:48:18 PM) Devin: so uh, I'm doing the best I can
(5:48:18 PM) Devin: lol
(5:50:03 PM) Adam_Hintz: I can kind of see this in the "bring new ishthinkers" thread
(5:50:31 PM) Adam_Hintz: at first you're like TEAR IT ALL DOWN!!
(5:50:47 PM) Devin: right
(5:50:47 PM) Adam_Hintz: Then you offer so constructive suggestions.
(5:51:08 PM) Devin: it's definitely a process, but people can't really see that unless they've experienced it
(5:51:21 PM) Devin: I don't think most people have the experience of actually working all the way through a conflict
(5:52:57 PM) Adam_Hintz: Maybe you could preface the rage with a disclaimer
(5:53:53 PM) Adam_Hintz: "This is a rant and I'm just getting this out first. Please trust something constructive will come of this"
(5:54:03 PM) Adam_Hintz: "RAAAGGGEEE"
(5:54:09 PM) Devin: lol
(5:54:20 PM) Adam_Hintz: "And now on to the nut and bolts"
(5:54:34 PM) Devin: I did preface it
(5:54:36 PM) Devin: lol
(5:54:43 PM) Adam_Hintz: Shit did you?
(5:54:44 PM) Devin: fuck I even put "preface" in bold and underline
(5:54:53 PM) Adam_Hintz: facepalm
(5:55:01 PM) Devin: it doesn't help
(5:55:02 PM) Devin: 
He had to sign off, though. The end.
Response to Devin's post in another thread
Submitted by AaronD on Sun, 2008-05-04 23:37.
"...not that you're saying this, I don't think that unbanning me is necessary for a "productive" conversation..."
It's my opinion, and been my experience, that it has everything to do with having a productive conversation. If I steal your pencil and your friends got upset about it, the VERY first thing I would do in order to reach a place of reconciliation would be to give you back your pencil; even if you had already purchased another pencil. It's an energetic and emotional difference between having a discussion while I still have your stolen pencil and after I've given it back.
It may seem like a technicality that you're able to respond as "testuser", but it is a gesture of willingness to communicate and hear the community's voice that unbanning you would show.
Unbanning you does not mean that suddenly everything is "okay" or that people weren't hurt by your words or by Tony's or by anyone else's. Those items can be addressed on their own. It's a matter of separating out the emotional from the reasonable.
So, this is my request that any member of this community who has moderation power to reinstate Devin's original account. If this request is not met, then I would request that you take time to discuss with me your reasons so that I can better understand your position.
Care,
Aaron
I see where you're coming
Submitted by testuser on Mon, 2008-05-05 15:28.
I see where you're coming from. I agree unbanning me would enable a much less emotionally charged conversation and think it an important step.
I guess I just don't want to "hold things hostage" by denying my involvement until I have the formality of having my original pencil back. The nuance I included in the other thread that wasn't shown in what you quoted me saying, however, was that I'm getting the sense there are a few people who have completely written me off -- that no matter what I say (or anyone else says) it's not going to influence their opinion of me or their willingness to unban me.
I don't really know what to do with that, I just know that I don't have infinite patience. To continue to wait for something to happen, especially when I don't see it happening soon, is tiring.
This isn't to create a self-fulfilling prophecy or "jinx" things, just to be honest about how I'm seeing it right now.
In to the breech
Submitted by Hypnopompia on Sun, 2008-05-04 23:59.
Devin-
I've read through this thread a couple times. I'm confused. I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at, what you want to accomplish. Considering how many attempts to understand get replied to with some lengthy version of "no." I don't think I'm alone here. Could you spell it out simply, in say three sentences or less?
- Benjamin Shender
Clear?
Submitted by testuser on Mon, 2008-05-05 16:06.
I'm not "trying to accomplish" anything, I'm just telling my side of the story until I feel like people have heard it or it becomes clear to me that they cannot or do not wish to hear it. All I want to do is say my piece and my peace until it resolves one way or another -- so I can let go of this and move on to other things.
I can understand that. Ok,
Submitted by Hypnopompia on Mon, 2008-05-05 19:27.
I can understand that. Ok, enough from me then.
wait just a minute
Submitted by Lauranimist on Mon, 2008-05-05 01:02.
There are more people involved in this than you think. I believe hundreds of us.
I have yet to see any indication that Devin can post and express his feelings without making specific personal comments about Tony (and others).
I have yet to see an argument in favour of un-banning Devin other than "I don't approve of that" or "when will he be un-banned" or "that was really mean" or "this makes me puke" - none of which is a reasoned argument. Only whining and war-making and trying to get the popular vote, as far as I can see. (BTW, vomiting is a territorial anger conflict. Get rid of the idea that you own this site, and the puky feelings will go away)
I have yet to see a clear collective grasp in the two threads on this topic that we understand that this community is NOT about expressing our feelings about each other: it's for practical advice about walking away from Taker culture.
As far as I'm concerned, much of what I'm seeing so far is Taker bitching, Taker self-defense, Taker summarizing-my-point-of-view, Taker anger, and Taker diplomacy. I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying that to bluntly state the fact that this is not much different from every group conflict I've encountered from Grade 3 onward.
Being Takers by birth, we're all really good at those tactics; however, I would like to make a very particular request of the people here. Can we PLEASE all try something different - something that would demonstrate a real community effort to walk away from normal Taker culture?
First (especially Devin, but I mean everyone): please try to say your point of view without saying "Tony did this" and "Amanda did that" and "this community feels this way" Piss off with the "I-know-everything-I'm-a-mind-reader" attitude. It is unbelievably obfuscating. You've been asked directly now. If you persist, it might be because you're trying to ruin this site, in which case, you'll likely succeed. If that's the case, too bad you're such a jerk, but whatever, I've got other stuff to do.
Second: please consider your audience. It is a lot more people than the names you recognize and have a history with. Most of us absolutely do not want to hear how much you love or hate each other from stuff that happened however long ago. I don't even know who you ARE. This is an electronic board, not a living, breathing ecosystem with body language and smells. I can't understand what you mean when you talk about historical stuff and I don't know 90% of the people you're referring to. I come here to learn about vagina wetlands and actual ways that people are doing something different with their lives. And by "different," I mean other than having territorial battles over web sites we supposedly don't even care about.
Third: the positions are clear as to who hurt who and who feels who was in the wrong about what. Let's stop talking about it, it's really getting boring
Fourth: there are several people here with moderator power and the ability to ban people. Strong-arming one guy into un-banning Devin might be nice and symbolic, but it has absolutely no impact on the total question of who has control over this community. The technical moderators have control. The "community" could have control IF and WHEN we start talking about this issue broadly and sensibly, instead of personally and politically. It is not about anyone being sorry or admitting fault. In the end, if the whole board is taken up with "issues" of this nature, it is utterly irrelevant who has moderator power because this site will become meaningless for the purpose for which it was intended.
I'm asking, please, if we can go against our deep "instincts," at least temporarily, and try to see this situation like grownups planning for the seventh generation in the future and for the salmon and for the newbies and for the communities and tribes that might grow out of places like IshThink...if IshThink could learn from and move beyond this kind of kissy-soap opera stuff. I mean that in, like, the most loving way possible.
Laura
Quote:
Submitted by testuser on Mon, 2008-05-05 16:08.
Piss off with the "I-know-everything-I'm-a-mind-reader" attitude. It is unbelievably obfuscating. You've been asked directly now. If you persist, it might be because you're trying to ruin this site, in which case, you'll likely succeed. If that's the case, too bad you're such a jerk, but whatever, I've got other stuff to do.
First of all, I really don't think you speak for IshThink as to what this site is for. I really don't think you own IshThink any more than anyone else does here and so most of your wordage here strikes me as you "whining and war-making" about your definition of this site: "this community is NOT about expressing our feelings about each other: it's for practical advice about walking away from Taker culture."
Your comments dismissing the conflict at hand in favor of what you think this site is about bring up anger for me. "This is not much different from every group conflict I've encountered from Grade 3 onward" and "this is getting really boring" and all your talk about how "we're so good at being Takers", while I don't invalidate your perspective, is really frustrating. I don't see any of these comments above as relevant or helpful and would request that you not involve yourself where you are quite simply not involved. It is legitimate to request that we discuss a topic you are interested in; it is not legitimate to come into a conversation where you're unhappy with what people are talking about and dismiss them and the conversation topic, while requesting that people talk about what you wish them to talk about.
----
That said:
In the original post and most of my responses to others here, I was telling my side of the story, and that involves my perception of Tony's (and Amanda's) and whomever's actions. Requesting that I separate the people involved from my story about what happened involving those people is absurd, and I cannot fulfill that request. Me telling my story has nothing to do with "I-know-everything-I'm-a-mind-reader" and everything to do with "this-is-me-whether-you-like-it-or-not".
You can speculate as to my motives all you wish but unless you're willing to hear my story at face value or at least ask questions for clarification, I don't really trust that you have/are writing in good faith. As you say, you don't even know who I am, and so your involving yourself in my personal conflicts and making requests of me is tiresome.
I would love to discuss things like who has technical control of this site, hierarchy and the use of authority systems in this culture, and so on, but first I find it prudent to state my boundaries around what I am willing and what I am not willing to discuss. My conflict with Tony and Amanda is not one of those things -- even though I will speak to my integrity and my character as long as I feel unjustly represented. Judging my actions here is crossing a line, crossing my boundaries, and is not up for debate.
Until the issue of moderation is able to be separated from the personal conflicts on the side, I don't think we're going to be able to talk about what you or I are willing to talk about. The nature of the ban is too distracting, and any conversation will become emotionally charged.
Lastly, much of your request seems to be about thinking about the newbies on this site, and while I agree that this isn't a welcoming environment, I could hardly care less. I'm not trying to take care of IshThink, in fact I'd like nothing more than to feel like I can leave this site without feeling like I'm walking off in a huff in the middle of a conflict. That's not who I am, and so even though I am frustrated that this has even been made a conflict involving everyone in the first place, I'm not going to just write all of you off and leave. Whether you like it or not.
edited minorly for clarification
Reason
Submitted by AaronD on Mon, 2008-05-05 15:39.
Laura, I'd like to post my reasonable request to unban Devin.
"Devin" is already unbanned. He is here as "testuser" and commenting away. As such it makes no difference whether he operates under one name or the other. As a moderator who unbans him there are no ill consequences. Unbanning, as I've said, is in no way a position of "support" that Devin's words were acceptable to the group. Unbanning would have the bonus effect of relieving tension in the group. Many people (especially the ever-persistent Lynn) would finally stop the mantra of "Unban him" and the forum discussions you're hoping for could be regained.
Think of it as a clogged pipe. Laura, you're wanting this site to be about walking away and moving forward. But, because of a clogged pipe the water just won't flow. This discussion has gone on for a comically long time because no action has been taken. There has been discussion of action (a chat), there have been conversations happening in Private, there have been unban requests, and no real conversations around community decision making have been made.
If there are 2 things getting in our way: Unban Devin and Discuss Community Decisions, then doing 1 of them would go a long way in distilling this conflict.
And if IshThink is going to get back into its flow, then I think we need a plumber.
Unbanning is easy and doesn't "change" anything from the moderator's perspective but it does change things from the energetic perspective. Besides, it can always be reinstated.
Care,
Aaron
good points
Submitted by Lauranimist on Tue, 2008-05-06 15:09.
I will look into the technicalities of it.
I actually don't see any fields here that allow me to moderate!
thanks
Laura
As I recall, we never gave
Submitted by William on Tue, 2008-05-06 15:58.
As I recall, we never gave you moderator powers.
Little help here?
Submitted by Ghost on Tue, 2008-05-06 17:27.
Could somebody please answer Lynn's question? She's asked it at least a half a dozen times.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
I'll do it. Please redirect
Submitted by William on Tue, 2008-05-06 17:39.
I'll do it. Please redirect any flames to /dev/null.
Edit: Is done.
My comments....
Hey Devin --
I guess I kinda figured you would not much care for that comment... in my 'defense', I was talking more about subconscious motivation than conscious choice... but when I felt that twinge, I should have paid more attention to it. I'm sorry I did not.
Janene